Louis Weeks: Should pastors know what members give?
“Only the church treasurer should know the giving of members here.”
“Our giving is one the best indications of our spiritual health. Of course the Session and the pastor should know what we give.”
These opposing claims came from two different leaders of a Presbyterian congregation in Alabama during a recent weekend retreat. As you might imagine, we had a good discussion about questions like these: Who should know what people give? Should the pastor know? Should lay leaders?
Ask in most churches, “Does the pastor know what you give?” and you will receive a double-take of horror and some response that amounts to “Heavens, no.” Most congregational cultures now severely restrict the knowledge of receipts. Many retain the same “Offering Counters” for years.
Let me state baldly here what I put in more measured terms in my recent book, “All For God’s Glory: Redeeming Church Scutwork” (Alban): Pastors and lay leaders should know what people in the congregation give.
Consider these insights from some retired pastors who believe they and their lay colleagues should know about the giving of members. I name the current practice in most churches as “Common Assumption” (CA) and counter with what seem to me “Actual Facts” (AF).
CA The fewer people who know what people give, the better.
AF The more people who know, the smaller the possibility of embezzlement, the less chance of extortion (“If we don’t do what I want, then I will quit giving”), and the more ownership of the mission of the church. One pastor of more than forty years told me “I had to grow into believing more knowledge was a good thing. But once I learned it, our giving increased, and our life together bore less dysfunction.”
Another pastor told of an actual embezzler at her first charge. This one treasurer counted the money, made the deposits, and signed the checks.
CA Pastors should not know because they would give preference to those who gave more than to others who gave less.
AF All pastors naturally are drawn to some members of a congregation more than to others. All must develop practices and checks on their preferences in the interest of fairness and health of the church. Many pastors are tempted to pay the most attention to those who make the most noise, spread rumors most effectively, collect perceived troubles most vocally, and engage in other attention-getting. Moreover, pastors can lean toward preferential treatment of people on the basis of perceived, rather than actual giving.
Isn’t it better to seek fairness in sharing pastoral attention out of knowledge than out of ignorance?
CA Pastors usurp lay responsibility when they are nosy about money in a congregation.
AF Lay leaders are generally familiar with a “tax” structure for giving money, both for real taxes for local regional and national governments and pretend taxes for club dues or giving groups in non-profits. United Ways have relied for decades on a sort of tax structure for businesses and employees. Groups that tax naturally know, and don’t obviously undermine responsibility.
In most congregations, the pastor is the best placed person to learn and teach about discipleship and giving. One pastor told me, “I especially want to know when the giving of a member or household changes, either up or down. There is the sure indication of something of pastoral concern.”
According to retired pastors I respect, actual facts argue for shifting the culture of a congregation to permit pastors much more knowledge of the giving of members.
These topics are complex. But I find that the proverb, “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing” has a corollary: “No knowledge is even worse.”
Louis Weeks is president emeritus of Union Presbyterian Seminary in Richmond, Virginia.
Another part
Thanks for this Louis. I'm struck by how open we are about details of our personal life, here in the Facebook age, about everything except money. It's often noted that people would be far quicker to talk about their sex lives in public than they would their checkbooks. So that's precisely where discipleship out to bore down. Of course, given the old Adam dies hard, I don't personally want that very much...
Can't imagine
I can't imagine how we got ourselves in the position where we trust pastors with our spiritual well-being, but not with our finances.
'Course, that probably has something to do with the illusion that our spiritual well-being is somehow separable from our finances.
Amen
Excellent topic and timely. We recently held our stewardship campaign and used it as a time to share "giving patterns" that included giving units that fall within certain groupings per annual giving. The congregation had not done this in some years and most persons were shocked, and discouraged, to see the overall lack of investment persons had in the ministries of our church. It has prompted wonderful conversations. Although this, of course, does not include full sharing of information about giving to all members it is a more transparent way for a "household" to live and make decisions together based on the level of commitment by its members.
An argument against
My parents are generous givers, and they absolutely do NOT want their pastor to know how much they give. They see no reason for him to know. They don't want to be treated in any way differently because of their giving.
As for me, I don't really care if my pastor knows or not.
joy & blessing
In my own spiritual journey, I have discovered how spiritually dead I was when I was not willing to let go of 10% of all God had given to me - even as a seminary graduate. I would give anything if a pastor would have pulled me aside at that time and told me how much I was missing - how I was missing the joy that comes from giving, the ability to ... See Moresee just how much God has given to me, and the incredible blessing that comes from giving financially to kingdom-building. I believe with my whole heart that our finances are our number one indicator of our spiritual health - of how much we are able to truly trust God. This year, I decided to tell the congregation for the first time what I am giving to the church - I did not break down the dollar amount but told them that I give 10% off the top of my salary and my housing allowance - before anything else is taken out of it - insurance, retirement or taxes. My giving the stewardship talk was much more difficult than preaching. Sadly, when I first got to MVPUMC, I was told that I was giving more than any pastor had given in a long time - and I was not even tithing when I first got here!! I was in now way prepared to be their pastor if I myself was not tithing - but no one held me accountable! I am so grateful for the precious privilege of being faithful enough to tithe now. It is a huge joy and a blessing.
An assistant says no
As a pastor, I can say no - I don't want to know and be tempted to treat people any differently as a result, although I am only the assistant. Were I the head pastor and needed to know who might have more money available to help fund special projects it might be helpful to know this. But otherwise, I prefer not to know. I don't like the idea of my head pastor knowing what I give, but I have to live with that. Accountability and all. I should add that my husband and I currently give as much to charity/development work we are also passionate about and see that as an essential part of God's work. (I am not saying I disagree with the article - again, if I were head pastor I would probably want to know and think the arguments are sound for it. Just expressing my personal reservations in my current position.)
Yep
Right on. To assume your pastor - your "spiritual guide" - should not know what you do with your money only plays into a) consumerism that lets me do what I want with "what's mine," and b) gnosticism that assumes what I do with my stuff has nothing to do with Jesus.
I talk about generosity and money till people are probably tired of hearing about it, but I try to keep it positive. As I remind established church goers, learning about God's will for our stuff and the blessing of giving IS a blessing for people new to the faith. And pastors should lead the way: giving by example, and knowing how closely people are following along behind.
To Jennifer Adams-Massman
You may be right, and I really hadn't thought about pastoral staff and others supporting the work professionally. Usually the real concern is for pastors not to know, as Jay Blossom speaks of his parents. I imagine such decisions would be made best among staff on "need to know" basis. All I'm advocating-- and trying to provoke-- is opening the topic that is not discussed in many (most?) congregations.
Know well the condition of
Know well the condition of your flocks... -Proverbs 27:3
a compromise alternative that we use
Louis,
You wrote:
One pastor told me, “I especially want to know when the giving of a member or household changes, either up or down. There is the sure indication of something of pastoral concern.”
I do agree with this. So, while as pastor I choose not to know the particulars of folks' giving, I do have an agreement with the financial secretary and treasurer to give me a heads-up if anyone's giving changes dramatically/abruptly either way. This way I can follow-up with Christian care without learning what I prefer not to know.
Thanks.
peace <{{{><
michael
Pastor, check thine own heart.
You do not need to see someone's giving record to help them in crisis. You need to foster a place that focuses on relationships. If a person is connected to the body ... through home groups, through counseling (elder, pastor, lay-counsel, whatever you have in place) if there are REAL relationships being fostered in your congregation, then SOMEONE will know when a person looses their job. DUH. and even if the person struggling doesnt bring it to the decons - someone else can/should. THAT reason is BUNK.
Now as for sin issues - again, relationship is the key. If a pastor is simply the preacher, and 'head' of the elders (like in a big church situation) then he's not going to be counseling individuals anyways - like moses - that will be delegated. If he is a pastor of a small congregation and IS in a 'shepherd's' role, then again, he will know about issues as they are discussed. OR bible study/home group leaders and co-attenders will get to know each other and issues will become apparent. The ONLY way your argument to know the #s of giving holds water is if your congregation is full of sunday attenders. And if THAT is the case then you have far greater issues than whether or not someone is tithing. If people are not connecting relationally - in a real and meaningful way, then YOU as the pastor (and the leaders of your church) are NOT doing your job(s), and THAT needs to be addressed far in advance of knowing someone's tithing #s. And finally, lets face the facts. If a pastor wants to know my giving there are SO many places opened up for sin, both on the part of the pastor and the flock. For the pastor, he VERY WELL may give unconsious favor to those who tithe more. May not intend to, but may anyways. OR it may simply feed an idol in the pastors life of wanting too much control. or a that little curiosity thing that honestly cannot be justified. On the part of the flock, it may breed (though not intentionally) a works mentality and/or performance issues. My pastor has made it known that he DOES NOT know anyones giving, and i actually noticed that I was a bit bummed cuz i wanted his approval for giving in spite of the fact that we are financially crushed at the moment. It was actually something i had to bring before God cuz it revealed to me how much my pastor's approval matters to me. (small church plant). 'fear of man' idol bla bla bla.
there. nuf said
Should the pastor know how much you give?
I give more than a tithe. I sometimes have a hard time being a cheerful giver because I am not as productive as I should be. In 2 Cor 9:7 the Bible says each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. In our church, small group leaders were given information about the giving levels of the members in their groups. If I know that my leader in my small group knows how much I give, then it seems like I am compelled to give because they are looking over my shoulder. The decision is no longer between me and God, it is not what I am deciding in my heart to give, but what I am giving because someone is checking on me. It makes it hard to be a cheerful giver.
I appreciate the
I appreciate the conversation. It is informative. And as I indicated, each congregation is a unique culture.
In the book All For God's glory: Redeeming Church Scutwork (Alban) I tell about one pastor's experience when a consultant asked the members of the session (board) of the church to write on a slip of paper what was given by that elder and family. No names!
They simply posted the giving on the blackboard, and one elder saw his gift was the largest and began to take responsibility of teaching the others about generosity. Yes, he may have shamed a few wealthy ones in the process.
Transitioning to Transparency
I'm not going to go into all the theological and pastoral arguments, most already well-stated here, for having pledging be transparent at least to the pastors of the church (and possibly to the whole finance team). I'm here to offer AF (actual facts). In our New England Congregational (=very private financially) church we finally made the transition to transparency this year.
We had a series of five stewardship moments, in which each speaker, starting with me, the senior minister, said what we gave (dollar amount AND percentage of our net income) to the church, and how we got there (it took some of us a while). The testimonies were delivered with humility and grace.
We invited, via the pledge card, people to check a box opting OUT of letting their pastors know what they give. Only 9 out of 69 pledge units opted out. Our giving went up 24% this year, in a recession, in a low-to-moderate income (mostly grad students, teachers & social workers) congregation. When I saw the number, I was pleased (and relieved) to see that most people are giving generously, and have found that I have no trouble 'ministering impartially to the needs of all' (although I do find myself wondering about the one who opted out--what is really going on there? And now that they know what I give, they have a power over me, there is an imbalance, a secrecy, lack of disclosure, there...)
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